Boris Johnson Covid Inquiry – live: Ex-PM to face second day’s grilling amid anger from families
Boris Johnson is to face a second day of grilling at the covid inquiry on Thursday.
During his first day of testimony, Mr Johnson’s apology to the nation was interrupted by four people who staged a protest in the hearing room.
Mr Johnson arrived three hours early on Wednesday morning to dodge the protesters waiting outside. During the day he admitted the pandemic’s impact on the NHS had “bewildered” him. He also acknowledged the government’s policy appeared “incoherent” on the timing of actions in light of the graph in March 2020 suggesting the NHS could be overwhelmed.
Mr Johnson stumbled over his words as the inquiry heard he lost 5,000 WhatsApp messages between January 2020 and June 2020.
He also implied the mad cow disease crisis in Britain made him sceptical of the threat of coronavirus as it “wasn’t nearly as fatal as people had originally believed”.
Key Points
Boris Johnson booed as he leaves Covid inquiry
Johnson was ‘bewildered’ realising NHS would be overwhelmed
Boris Johnson’s 5,000 missing WhatsApps between January 2020 to June 2020
Johnson admits government’s policy appeared ‘incoherent'
Boris Johnson: ‘I unquestionably made mistakes… so many people lost lives inevitably’
Boris Johnson: Pandemic meetings were ‘too male dominated’
Ask John Rentoul anything as Boris Johnson gives bombshell evidence at the Covid inquiry
Watch: Gasps as Johnson snaps at Covid inquiry lawyer over death toll figures
16:01 , Tara Cobham
‘We were not prepared to close schools,’ Johnson admits
15:59 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Boris Johnson has admitted the government was “not prepared suddenly to be forced to close schools”.
The former prime minister told the Covid inquiry the pandemic was a “once in a century event” and it was “fair” to say there was no plan in place to close schools.
Johnson insists disparaging long Covid remarks were ‘reasonable’
15:56 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson has insisted he was “making a reasonable question” when voicing doubts over the existence of long Covid by comparing the debilitating illness to Gulf War Syndrome.
He said he “recognised the hurt those words must have caused to those with long Covid and their very real suffering”, but caveated: “I was making a reasonable question.”
Johnson refuses to agree institutional racism caused disproportionate impact of Covid
15:40 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson has refused to agree that the disproportionate impact of Covid on minority ethnic healthcare workers resulted from institutional racism.
When the point was put to him by Leslie Thomas KC, from the Federation of Ethnic Minority Healthcare Organisations (FEMHO), the former prime minister said: “I’m not certain of that.”
Johnson said he had not seen a Public Health England report that Mr Thomas said had come to this conclusion.
‘We built new hospitals’: Johnson pressed on protective measures for minority ethnic groups
15:37 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson has been pressed on what protective measures his government put in place to protect vulnerable and minority ethnic groups who were disproportionately impacted by the pandemic.
The former prime minister said: “What we didn’t at that stage know is the extent to which the virus itself would impact different groups differently. That was really only to become apparent in the weeks ahead.”
However, focusing on the disparities faced by Black and Minority Ethnic (BAME) healthcare workers, Leslie Thomas KC, from the Federation of Ethnic Minority Healthcare Organisations (FEMHO), pressed the former prime minister. He said the first 10 doctors who died were from minority ethnic backgrounds, which showed it “became apparent very early on” how the pandemic impacted different groups differently.
Mr Johnson went on to cite his widely criticised new hospital building programme when asked what action he took to mitigate the disparities.
The former prime minister said he wanted to make sure NHS staff had “greater protection, above all by being less overworked”.
“One of the things we did was not only to embark on a big programme of hospital building, but recruiting some 50,000 more nurses,” Mr Johnson added.
He said: “If you are a nurse or frontline worker, then clearly one of the best ways to mitigate the risk that you face and the disproportionate risks that you face as a as a BAME frontline care worker is having an extra pair of hands to help you.”
Boris Johnson says nothing he could have done to stop Partygate
15:18 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson addressed the Partygate scandal as he was grilled at the UK’s Covid inquiry on Thursday (7 December).
The former prime minister was repeatedly questioned about whether he could have done more to stop the Partygate gatherings.
“People were working extremely hard,” Mr Johnson said before he was interrupted by interrogator Brenda Campbell KC. “We’ve heard that before,” she said.
She asked Mr Johnson for a “yes or no” answer to her question “Could you have done more to stop it?”.
“No,” Mr Johnson said.
Lucy Leeson reports:
Boris Johnson says nothing he could have done to stop Partygate
Johnson is ‘doing extremely well’ at inquiry, says Nadine Dorries
15:03 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson is “doing extremely well” at the UK Covid inquiry, Nadine Dorries has said.
Day 1 of Boris doing extremely well at #covidenquiryuk Jenrick resigns knocking coverage off front pages.
Day 2 Sunak calls impromptu press conference. Ditto.
Will Jenrick resignation all have blown over by Monday? Will we see him pop up in cabinet sometime soon? Is most…— Rt Hon Nadine Dorries (@NadineDorries) December 7, 2023
Johnson on ‘pointless political friction’ between government and DAs
15:00 , Tara Cobham
In his witness statement, the inquiry was told Mr Johnson has said: “It’s optically wrong for the UK prime minister to hold regular meetings with other devolved administrations’ ministers.”
Explaining the remark to the probe, he said that one of the considerations was the “risk of pointless political friction and grandstanding because of the well-known opposition of some of the devolved administrations to the Government and to avoid necessary leaks”.
He added that he thought the “way to minimise divergence and tensions was to take the temperature down and to have a business-like and practical meetings between the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the DAs”.
‘I had no ill will toward Nicola Sturgeon,’ says Johnson
14:49 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Boris Johnson told the Covid inquiry he had “no ill will” towards Nicola Sturgeon, despite his former top aide Ed Lister saying they “didn’t like each other very much”.
The former PM said he was “sorry to hear Eddie said that”, and insisted he and Ms Sturgeon “got on very well and had a friendly relationship”.
But in Lord Lister’s evidence, talking about a meeting between Mr Johnson and the former Scottish first minister, he said: “There was quite a lot of tension between the Prime Minister and the First Minister, they had no real personal relationship of any kind other than that they, I think, generally didn't like each other very much.”
Watch: Johnson says nothing he could have done to stop Partygate
14:41 , Tara Cobham
‘Terrible’ but ‘inevitable’ to have to close schools again in January 2021 - Johnson
14:28 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson said it was “terrible” but “inevitable” to have to close schools again in January 2021 after the emergence of the more transmissible Alpha variant of the virus.
He told the inquiry: “It’s always the most vulnerable families, it’s the poorest kids who come off worse from school closures. And that was definitely the case, we’d seen that in the first lockdown without a shadow of a doubt.
“So we were desperate to keep schools open.”
He insisted he did “fight and fight and fight in my heart and head to keep schools open”.
He added: “I really wanted to do it, but it just wasn’t a runner and we had to lock everything down.”
He said he had “listened respectfully” to his many colleagues, including then education secretary Gavin Williamson, who wanted to keep schools open.
Mr Johnson said: “The fact is that, sadly, schools are terrific reservoirs of the virus. And in the cold winter months, they were going to be a big vector of transmission for elderly people and it wasn’t a runner.”
‘We should’ve told people in No10 to think about behaviour,’ reads Johnson’s 2021 message
14:21 , Tara Cobham
A WhatsApp conversation between Cabinet Secretary Simon Case and then-prime minister Boris Johnson was shown to the inquiry.
Counsel Hugo Keith said it was sent “around that time of the revelation of the partying in Downing Street”.
On December 17 2021 Mr Johnson wrote: “In retrospect we all should have told people – above all Lee Cain – to think about their behaviour in number ten and how it would look. But now we must smash on.”
Boris Johnson’s rewriting of history on Partygate ‘desperate’, Lib Dems
14:19 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
The Liberal Democrats have slammed Boris Johnson’s attempt to rewrite history on Partygate as “desperate”.
The former prime minister told the Covid inquiry the media portrayal of Downing Street parties has left the public with an impression that is “a million miles from the reality of what actually happened in No10”.
But Lib Dem deputy leader Daisy Cooper told The Independent: “These parties were investigated by the police and Boris Johnson accepted a fine for breaking lockdown rules. It's baffling that he continues to try and deceive the country.
“Boris Johnson cannot expect his apology to be taken seriously when he continues his desperate attempt to rewrite history.”
‘We moved heaven and earth to get PPE and tests,’ Johnson tells inquiry
14:18 , Tara Cobham
On personal protective equipment (PPE) and testing for Covid-19, Boris Johnson told the pandemic inquiry that as soon as the government recognised the scale of the problem they “moved heaven and earth to get both”.
Mr Johnson said: “I have explained that we didn’t understand the scale and the pace of the of the virus’s advance but, even if we had, I don’t believe that it would have made that much difference in January because the stocks were not great around the world.
“And if you remember what happened, we had a terrible situation in March when there were struggles virtually at airports over consignments of PPE.”
The former prime minister said that early on he was told that “we did have a very good test and trace system and ample preparations but that turned out not to be true”, adding: “The UK’s diagnostics industry was not as well developed when the pandemic began as others.
“And that was because I was being told in those early weeks that we were well covered – that turned out not to be true. We reacted.
“We then set up one of the biggest testing industries in Europe, and I want to thank Dido Harding very much for everything she did. I also want to thank Paul Deighton for what he did on securing PPE.”
Johnson says there is nothing he could have done to stop Partygate
14:10 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson came under intense pressure over whether there was anything more he could have done to prevent the Partygate scandal.
The former prime minister was repeatedly questioned about whether he could have done more, and sought to deflect by saying he “had no knowledge” of the events.
“People were working extremely hard,” Mr Johnson said before he was interrupted by interrogator Brenda Campbell KC, who is representing bereaved families. “We’ve heard that before,” she said.
She asked for a yes or no, “could you have done more to stop it?”.
“Given what I knew at time, the answer is no,” Mr Johnson said.
He added: “But what I could’ve done was issue a general instruction about the rules and how they appear.”
It was put to him that a bereaved family member described the Downing Street parties as“galling and sickening”, to which he said: “I understand fully the point that you are making and I regret it very much.”
Johnson claims Partygate coverage is ‘million miles’ from truth
13:58 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson embarked on an extraordinary re-writing of history over Partygate as he gave evidence to the Covid inquiry, insisting the public’s perception of lockdown-breaching parties in Number 10 was a “million miles” from the truth.
In comments that will infuriate families bereaved during the Covid pandemic, the former prime minister said the representation of repeated gatherings during the pandemic was “absolutely absurd”.
Pressed about the saga — which sparked his eventual downfall as PM — Mr Johnson said the way Partygate has been presented was a “travesty of truth”.
Archie Mitchell reports:
Johnson: Partygate coverage is ‘million miles’ from truth
Johnson denies claiming infections higher in Wales due to ‘singing and obesity'
13:56 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson has denied claiming the reason Covid cases were higher in Wales was because of the “singing and the obesity”.
When the comment was put to the former prime minister as written in Sir Patrick Vallance’s diary, Mr Johnson replied: “I never said that.”
Inquiry chair urges public gallery to stop making noise during Johnson’s evidence
13:40 , Tara Cobham
Baroness Heather Hallett, chairwoman of the UK Covid-19 public inquiry, urged members of the public gallery to stop making noise during Boris Johnson’s evidence.
Pete Weatherby KC, who represents the Covid Bereaved Families for Justice, was probing part of the former prime minister’s statement to the inquiry where he said that the “United Kingdom has defied most of the gloomier predictions and has ended the pandemic, or the most serious phases of it, well down the global league tables for excess mortality”.
Mr Johnson said: “The point I was making, and which I stand by, is that the UK, the tables I’ve seen, actually comes about halfway down.
“This is not in any way to diminish the pain and the suffering of people who lost family members during Covid, it is to reflect the enormous effort made by the whole of the UK to protect the NHS and save lives.”
Mr Weatherby said: “You’ve raised this in your statement, you made a sweeping assertion that the UK defied the more gloomy predictions, I’m putting to some cold steel of evidence.”
To which Mr Johnson replied: “But I don’t believe that your evidence stacks up”, which drew jeers from the public gallery.
Lady Hallett said: “I’m sorry, I know that emotions are running high but I have to ask those in the public gallery to keep quiet, whatever their emotions, because it’s going to disrupt the proceedings and it affects the live feed, the streaming for other people trying to follow.
“I’m really sorry. I do understand, but it has to stop.”
Johnson rejects claims he ‘didn’t care’ about nation’s 'suffering’ during pandemic
13:21 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson has rejected claims that he “didn’t care” about the “suffering that was being inflicted on the country” during the pandemic.
Hugo Keith, counsel to the Covid-19 Inquiry, questioned the former prime minister on rule-breaking in Number 10 at the time.
He put to Mr Johnson: “You knew how it would look but you didn’t care that much.”
Mr Johnson said the inquiry has “dwelt particularly on WhatsApp exchanges and various things I’m supposed to have said which indicate that I didn’t care”.
Becoming emotional, he added: “I did care and I continue to get passionately about it, and I haven’t talked about this before in public.
“It goes to what you were saying earlier about elderly people and what you claim is my indifference to the pandemic.
“When I went into intensive care, I saw around me a lot of people who were not actually elderly. In fact, they were middle-aged men and they were quite like me – and some of us were going to make it and some of us weren’t.
“What I’m trying to tell you in a nutshell – and the NHS, thank god, did an amazing job and helped me survive – but I knew from that experience what appalling a disease this is. I had absolutely no personal doubt about that, from March onwards.
“To say that I didn’t care about the suffering that was being inflicted on the country is simply not right.”
Boris Johnson said ‘f*** you Daily Mail’
12:57 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Daily Mail columnist Boris Johnson wanted to tell the newspaper “f*** you” during the pandemic, Sir Patrick Vallance’s diaries reveal.
The former PM was recorded in a meeting with Sir Patrick as saying: “Everyone says the rule of six is so unfair, punishing the young but “F*** YOU Daily Mail - look this is all about stopping deaths.
“We need to tell them.”
Mr Johnson quickly apologised for his language after the diary extract was read out to the inquiry.
And he profusely apologised to the “great organisation” he now writes a weekly column for.
“I am sorry to have said this about the Daily Mail," Mr Johnson said.
He added: “I don't think that was meant to be a general criticism of that great organisation [they must have] said something that had wound me up about the rule of six or whatever.”
Baroness Hallett: ‘Partygate exacerbated pain of Covid bereaved’
12:40 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Covid inquiry chair Baroness Hallet has slapped down Boris Johnson’s defence of the Partygate scandal, saying that Partygate “exacerbated” the suffering of families bereaved during the pandemic.
“One of the problems is that I've received a number of messages from bereaved people as I've travelled around the United Kingdom, and so many of them who suffered horrific grief during lockdown,” Baroness Hallett said.
She added that the Partygate scandal “exacerbated” the suffering.
To say I did not care about the suffering is ‘simply not right’, says Johnson
12:39 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Boris Johnson said that to suggest he did not care about people suffering during the pandemic is “simply not right”.
The former prime minister opened up emotionally about his time in intensive care with the virus and how “from that experience I knew what an appalling disease this is”.
Inquiry counsel Hugo Keith KC hit back, however, saying: “Mr Johnson, I have never suggested you didn't care about the suffering.
“I suggested you didn't care. About the reaction to the behaviour [in Downing Street].”
Watch: Whitty called Sunak’s Covid scheme ‘eat out to help out the virus’, Johnson says
12:39 , Tara Cobham
Johnson: ‘We should have told people to behave better… but let’s smash on’
12:38 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Boris Johnson said he should have told people to behave better in Downing Street during the pandemic, but added “now we must smash on”.
He told cabinet secretary Simon Case that he was “really sorry” for the “grief” the Partygate scandal was causing him. “This whole business is insane,” he said in a WhatsApp exchange seen by the inquiry.
Mr Case replied to the PM: “Thanks PM, it is a bit grim, but hopefully it will pass.”
And the former prime minister wrote back: “In retrospect we all should have told people - above all [comms chief] Lee Cain - to think about their behaviour in No10 and how it would look.
“But now we must smash on.”
Partygate stories have been a ‘travesty of the truth’, says Johnson
12:20 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson mounted an incredible defence of his behaviour – and that of Whitehall officials – during the pandemic, saying the Partygate scandal has been misrepresented by the media.
The former prime minister said the way lockdown-busting gatherings in Downing Street have been presented is a “travesty of the truth”.
And Mr Johnson told the Covid inquiry: “The version of events that has entered the popular consciousness about what is supposed to have happened in Downing Street is a million miles from the reality of what actually happened in No10.”
He said that some of the representations of what happened have been “absolutely absurd”, “dramatic”, and “a million miles from the reality of what happened”.
Mr Johnson said that Whitehall officials “thought they were working very hard, which they were,” adding: “I certainly thought that what we were doing was within the rules.”
However, he added: “I understand and apologise for the offence that has been caused. If I had my time again of course I would’ve done things differently in No10.”
‘I continue to regret Partygate,’ says Johnson
12:19 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson said he “continues to regret” lockdown-busting parties which took place in Downing Street during the pandemic.
And he said: “I take full responsibility for everything that the government did during the pandemic.”
Barnard Castle affair was ‘a bad day’ and ‘obviously damaging’, says Johnson
12:18 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Boris Johnson said the Barnard Castle was “a bad day” and “was obviously damaging” to trust in the government’s Covid policies.
“I won’t pretend otherwise,” the former PM said.
Cummings never told me he was going to Barnard Castle, says Johnson
12:14 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Boris Johnson has said that Dominic Cummings did not tell him he was going to Durham with his family during the pandemic, despite the ex-top aide claiming he did.
The inquiry heard a claim from Mr Cummings that he told the PM and Mr Johnson must have forgotten because of his bout with Covid.
But Mr Johnson said: “I would have noted that.”
The inquiry has previously seen a WhatsApp message from Mr Johnson to another official calling Mr Cummings a “total and utter liar”.
Omicron was ‘absolutely terrifying’, says Johnson
12:12 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Boris Johnson said the Omicron Covid variant was “absolutely terrifying”.
“It was very transmissible. And there seemed a real risk that it would do a huge huge amount of damage to people,” Mr Johnson told the Covid inquiry.
Boris Johnson: I finally had a handle on the data… by December 2021
12:09 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Boris Johnson has said he had a “pretty good handle on the data” by the end of 2021, almost two years after the pandemic emerged.
“By then I was watching it very closely,” the former prime minister told the Covid inquiry.
Speaking about the middle and later parts of December 2021, Mr Johnson said: “I think this was one of those occasions, possibly rare, when I felt that I, I may be flattering myself, but I felt I got a pretty good handle on the on the data by then and I was watching it very closely.”
Watch: Boris ‘perplexed’ Vallance and Whitty weren’t consulted on Eat Out to Help Out
12:08 , Tara Cobham
Johnson defends tier system
12:07 , Tara Cobham
Former prime minister Boris Johnson has defended the Covid restrictions tier system, introduced in autumn 2020, saying that he wanted to “keep going with a regional approach” rather than opting for a national “circuit breaker” lockdown.
Asked about calls for a circuit breaker in September, he told the pandemic inquiry that he was told “if you do one, it may not be enough and you may have to do another” and described it as a “yo-yo risk”.
He said: “I want to try to just remind everybody of the context, but when we’re coming out of the first lockdown, because what’s happening is that the disease is very diversely spread over over the country. And there are parts of the UK where it’s barely present.
“Some places, sadly, Leicester, some parts of the north barely came out of restrictions throughout 2020. And so the question would have been, do we continue with national measures the whole time… that would just write off 2020.
“Or do you try what we tried, which is to respect and reflect the geography of the outbreak, and to say: ‘Well, we’re not going to close a hospitality in Devon and Cornwall because of whatever is happening in in the West Midlands or elsewhere’.
“And that for a while, seemed to a lot of people to be a sensible way forward – that led to tiering and I think it was worth a try because of the difficulties with the circuit breaker concept.”
He added: It wasn’t that I was against going into a national lockdown, per se or that I had set my mind absolutely against it. But I thought that a regional approach was a sensible way to go to and it was worth trying.”
Johnson queried whether elderly should be given choice to shield, hears inquiry
12:06 , Tara Cobham
The pandemic inquiry heard that in August 2020, Boris Johnson queried whether it would be feasible to give elderly people choice to shield themselves ahead of a second wave of cases.
He asked top science and medical advisers whether over-65s should be given the choice to enter “spontaneous self-preservation and keep themselves to themselves or run the risk of hugging their grandchildren and engaging filly in society”.
But Mr Johnson said the policy was not pursued because he was told: “Even if you’ve elected to be shielded, or even if the government is trying to shield this segment of the of the population, it is not going to work because the infectiousness is too great.”
Boris Johnson: ‘I fought in my heart and head to keep schools open’
12:05 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Boris Johnson said he “fought in my heart and head” to keep schools open, but it “wasn’t a runner”.
The former prime minister said it is “the poorest kids who come up worse from school closures” and he “really wanted to” avoid the measure.
He was quizzed over former education secretary Sir Gavin Williamson’s claim that he was overruled, having himself tried to keep schools open.
But Mr Johnson said schools were “reservoirs of the virus” and “were going to be a big vector of transmission for elderly people”.
“And it wasn’t a runner,” Mr Johnson said.
Johnson refuses to accept 2020 pandemic decision-making was too late
12:04 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson said he did not accept pandemic decision-making in 2020 had been too late.
Inquiry lawyer Hugo Keith KC said: “Mr Johnson, what were the consequences of making decisions too late? When you said those words to your colleagues on the Covid-S meeting on the 21st of September, what did you have in mind by consequences and the decision-making having been too late?”
Mr Johnson replied: “Clearly if you make any decision too late then there’s going to be a cost and in the case of Covid there’s a cost in human life.
“What I wouldn’t accept is that all the decisions in September, October, November (2020) were too late.
“Nor would I accept, knowing what we did then, that the decision in March (2020) was too late.”
Johnson describes pandemic cabinet as ‘performative’
12:03 , Tara Cobham
Inquiry lawyer Hugo Keith said it had been suggested by Dominic Cummings that the cabinet process had been more “politically excitable”, at which point Boris Johnson interjected to suggest the word “performative”.
Mr Keith said: “Thank you. Performative. How there were worries about leaks, where it was more a matter of political theatre.”
Mr Johnson went on to say: “I think that’s certainly a fair criticism of some cabinet meetings but as time went on, I genuinely think that cabinet proved to be more and more valuable, and you genuinely started to have different points of view properly represented around the table, and different departmental interests, particularly HMT (the Treasury), properly represented.
“And it became a much more… I started to see the wisdom in the system and I think it worked.”
Johnson insists strategy was to save lives ‘at all ages’ and ‘that is what we did'
12:01 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson told the Covid inquiry his strategy was to save lives “at all ages” and “that is what we did”.
He was shown extracts from former Government chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance’s diaries which described Mr Johnson saying the Government should “let it rip” (the virus) through the population.
Mr Johnson said “this was a phrase that was common parlance at the time and remains so”, adding: “I don’t wish to be repetitive but this is exactly what you’d expect me to be talking about at this stage.”
In one diary extract, from May 2021, Sir Patrick wrote: “PM meeting – Cx (then-chancellor Rishi Sunak) suddenly pipes up on incentives already in place. Argues that we should let it rip a bit.”
Hugo Keith KC asked Mr Johnson: “Was your position, Mr Johnson, that in light of your views secretly held about people dying having reached their time anyway, that you were obliged to reject the advice of your advisers that there’d be a circuit breaker, that there’d be no national lockdown until the last possible moment and that you will try a tier system?”
Mr Johnson said: “No, the implication that you’re you’re trying to draw from those conversations is completely wrong.
“My position was that we had to save human life at all ages.”
Watch: Johnson squirms as he’s shown all times he said ‘let it rip’ during grilling
12:00 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson is shown all the times he said “let it rip” (the virus) during his second-day grilling at Britain’s Covid inquiry on Thursday (7 December).
Hugo Keith KC showed the former prime minister extracts from former Government chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance’s diaries which described Mr Johnson saying the Government should “let it rip” through the population.
Mr Johnson said “This was a phrase that was common parlance at the time and remains so”, adding: “I don’t wish to be repetitive but this is exactly what you’d expect me to be talking about at this stage.”
Lucy Leeson reports:
Boris Johnson shown all the times he said ‘let it rip’ during Covid inquiry grilling
I don’t know why we called it the Kent variant… it wasn’t even from Kent - Johnson
11:58 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson has said he does not know why the Kent variant was called the Kent variant, telling the Covid inquiry that it “did not even originate in Kent”.
Boris Johnson grilled over ‘rollercoaster’ approach to lockdown
11:58 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Boris Johnson has denied taking Britain a “rollercoaster” approach to lockdowns after a grilling by inquiry counsel Hugo Keith KC.
The former prime minister was asked whether he delayed implementing measures until the last minute, leading to the “rollercoaster approach”.
But Mr Johnson said: “We did not delay and then do something at the last minute.”
“When you talk about a rollercoaster, I would say that rollercoaster was driven very largely by nature,” Mr Johnson said.
He added: “The extent to which we were able to control the rollercoaster is something that I think we all need to focus on.”
All the times Mr Johnson said 'let it rip' and other abhorrent comments
11:55 , Tara Cobham
The key Covid revelations from Boris Johnson today
11:49 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson fell silent for three minutes at the Covid inquiry on Thursday morning as he was confronted by all the times he talked about “letting it rip” through the population.
The former prime minister has been in largely good spirits responding to questioning from Hugo Keith KC, the probe’s lead counsel.
But Mr Johnson looked distinctly uneasy as he was shown five damning diary extracts by Sir Patrick Vallance.
Archie Mitchell reports:
From Eat Out to Help Out to ‘let it rip’: The key Covid revelations today
Johnson admits failures of tiering system but insists it was ‘worth a try'
11:45 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson has admitted failures of the tiering system in halting the spread of Covid infections but insisted it was “worth a try”.
Speaking at the UK Covid inquiry on Thursday, he said: “What we wanted out of the tiering system, and we’ve got to be clear here that we didn’t achieve it, was to crush the virus where it was most prevalent.”
Hugo Keith KC put to the former prime minister: “In the event the tiers, as we know, didn’t work.”
Mr Johnson replied, “They didn’t. And I’m very sad about that,” but insisted they were “worth a try”.
He said the system proved to become “very invidious” as different areas would find themselves in differing levels of lockdown.
He added: “It was clearly proving divisive and difficult to implement.”
But, questioned over a claim by Matt Hancock that he "knew" the tiers system would not work, Mr Johnson said he did not remember the health secretary telling him that.
Watch: Johnson shown all times he said ‘let Covid rip’ in uncomfortable inquiry moment
11:39 , Tara Cobham
Were private meetings with Rishi Sunak appropriate?
11:26 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Boris Johnson had private meetings with Rishi Sunak to discuss easing lockdowns measures, the Covid inquiry has heard.
Despite the meetings being about health measures, the health secretary was not present nor were any scientists involved.
An internal Treasury email said the meeting “shows the strength of the chancellor [Mr Sunak]’s voice in these discussions”.
Mr Johnson said the meeting would “presumably” have been about the economic implications of plans to change Covid restrictions.
Cabinet was ‘performative’, says Johnson
11:16 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson said cabinet meetings were “performative” and some were ill-equipped to properly debate scientific advice.
‘Let it rip was a phrase in common parlance,’ says Johnson
11:16 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Boris Johnson has said the phrase “let it rip” was in “common parlance” during the pandemic and that “you would expect me to be talking about that”. “Plenty of people used it in conversation with me,” he added.
He was then shown all the times he was recorded as having used the phrase, before attempting to defend himself.
“It does not do justice to what we did;... to say that we were remotely reconciled to fatalities across the country or that I believed it was acceptable to ‘let it rip’.”
“What I was asking, and I had to do this… I had to speak for everybody who wasn’t in the meetings and wanted these points put to the scientists.”
A rattled Mr Johnson added: “I needed to have the counterarguments.”
Johnson was told by Swedish epidemiology chief to take tougher measures
10:59 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Boris Johnson was told by Sweden’s head epidemiologist Anders Tegnell to adopt tougher measures before the UK’s second lockdown, the inquiry has heard.
The former PM has been grilled by Hugo Keith KC over a September 2020 meeting in which he had expected Mr Tegnell to argue for a more relaxed approach to restrictions.
“He turned out to surprise the meeting to argue in fact for a stronger intervention,” Mr Keith said. He added: “[Mr Tegnell] made it absolutely plain to you that contrary to much of the press reporting about the Swedish approach a stronger intervention was merited.”
Mr Johnson replied: “I could not swear to that.” But he said there was “a surprising degree of unanimity” among those present.
Boris Johnson accused of avoiding advice from Whitty and Vallance
10:53 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Boris Johnson is being questioned over whether he called a meeting of scientists deliberately to undermine unwanted advice from Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance.
The former prime minister called a meeting on September 20, 2020, with a wider group of scientists including Sweden’s state epidemiologist.
Hugo Keith KC asked Mr Johnson: “Is that why you called the meeting… because you wanted to have a greater diversity of scientific advice… beyond the advice you were receiving but were not inclined to accept from your own chief medical officer and chief scientific adviser?”
Mr Johnson said he wanted to understand “the great Swedish success… how they managed to do it without lockdowns”.
Johnson suggests approach ‘more reliant on common sense and less on regulation' in future
10:48 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson acknowledged the complexities of rules during the pandemic, and suggested an approach more reliant on common sense and less on regulation in future.
He said he had “a great deal of sympathy for the police, those who are charged with enforcing it, because it changed very often”.
He added: “I think there were 60 separate changes, and the complexities for the public to understand were very grey”.
Asked how it might be done differently in future, the former prime minister said it would be a matter for the inquiry, but suggested reflection is needed.
He said: “I think that there needs to be a great deal of reflection about simplifying the whole approach, and seeing what we can do to rely more on common sense and less on regulation and legislation.
“But there may be limits to that. I’m not suggesting there is an easy answer, because the reason fundamentally in the UK, and I say this to all the libertarians, why you need regulation is because ultimately people want to see everybody being obliged to obey the same set of rules and they want their neighbours to do what they are doing.”
I was not against a second national lockdown, says Johnson
10:45 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Boris Johnson has said he was not against a second national lockdown, but that he thought a regional approach was “a sensible way to go”.
The former PM was asked about the decision not to impose a circuit-breaker lockdown in autumn 2020, as cases of the virus were rising.
Told in September by Dominic Cummings that the government should announce a two-week circuit-breaker, Mr Johnson said: “What is the difference between a circuit-breaker and a national lockdown and what if it doesn’t work?”
Mr Johnson was told by former chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance and health secretary Matt Hancock to act “fast” and implement measures.
He insisted that he did “immediately” implement some restrictions, including advice on working from home and the rule of six.
Rishi Sunak faces grilling at Covid inquiry next week
10:45 , Tara Cobham
Embattled Tory leader Rishi Sunak will be grilled about his actions during the Covid pandemic when he appears before the public inquiry on Monday.
The PM is fighting to save his premiership after resignation of immigration minister Robert Jenrick, as he failed to appease the Tory right with his Rwanda legislation.
Adding to Mr Sunak’s woes, it emerged that he will be hauled up in front of the Covid inquiry within days to answer questions about his time as chancellor.
Adam Forrest, Political Correspondent reports:
Rishi Sunak faces grilling at Covid inquiry next week
Whitty and Vallance ‘must have known’ about Eat Out to Help Out, argues Johnson
10:44 , Tara Cobham
Boris Johnson told the Covid inquiry his statement says “Chris (Whitty) and Patrick (Vallance) must have known, or did know, about Eat Out to Help Out”.
However, both leading scientists, plus others, have told the inquiry they were not told about the scheme before it was made public.
Mr Johnson said: “I said that because it wasn’t a very secret thing. It was, I thought, a pretty well-publicised scheme, and I’m fairly confident that it was discussed several times in meetings in which I believe they must have been present.”
He says he understands now that the pair do not feel they were properly consulted, but added: “I don’t quite understand how that could have happened”.
He added: “I remember being surprised, later, I think it was in September, when Chris says ‘this is eat out to help the virus’.
“And I thought, ‘well, that’s funny’, because I didn’t remember any previous controversy about it.”
Mr Johnson agreed there were bilateral meetings in June and July with the Treasury and the Chancellor during which the scheme was debated.
Hugo Keith KC asked him: “There were no scientists present at any of those meetings were there?”
Mr Johnson replied: “No, but it would have been normal for a project like that, a scheme like that, to have gone through the Covid-19 Taskforce and it seemed to me odd that the scientists hadn’t been made aware of it.”
He later said: “I don’t understand how something as well publicised as that could have been smuggled past the the scientific advice, I don’t see how that could have happened.”
‘Who made these stupid rules?’: Vallance notes Johnson’s frustrations
10:41 , Tara Cobham
Covid inquiry counsel Hugo Keith referred to a diary entry in Sir Patrick Vallance’s evening notes “where you (Boris Johnson) exclaim in frustration, but plainly perhaps not to be taken too seriously, ‘Who made these stupid rules?’”
Boris Johnson replied: “Yeah.”
Mr Keith asked about any debate or discussion around the workability of regulations and any confusion which arose around them.
Mr Johnson said: “We did try to make the rules as simple as we could but the problem was the effort to get people to self-isolate, to avoid contact – because of the complexities of human life – became extremely complicated.”
‘We’ve seen second wave coming for miles,’ Boris Johnson in August 2020
10:37 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Boris Johnson told advisers he had “seen the wave coming for miles” so “we should be ready” in August 2020.
The former prime minister was then grilled about whether he considered a “segmentation” policy, which would have shielded the elderly and vulnerable while allowing others to live without restrictions.
In a debate with Professor Chris Whitty about segmentation, Mr Johnson asked if there was “merit in offering over-65s a choice”.
“If you are over 65 your risk of dying from Covid is probably as big as your risk of falling down stairs. And we don’t stop older people from using stairs,” Mr Johnson said.
Professor Whitty said the idea was “reasonable at an individual level”, but “most of those who die in that situation will not have chosen to take the risk”.
Boris Johnson grilled over ‘bigger fines… tougher enforcement’ comments
10:34 , Archie Mitchell, Political Correspondent
Boris Johnson has been grilled over whether he wanted bigger fines or more financial support for people self-isolating in order to boost compliance with lockdown rules.
The former PM was shown notes by the prime minister saying: “OVERRIDING MESSAGE should be about tougher enforcement and BIGGER FINES.”
Mr Johnson said he knew Britain would face a second wave of the virus and wanted to make sure people were “obeying the existing strictures”.
